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My Take
Saturday, 19 January, 2013, 12:00am
Christians are wrong, but not bigoted
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Boy, I have never seen so many Christians in one place in my life, at least not in Hong Kong. But the gathering outside the government headquarters of mainly Protestant groups last Sunday united against granting gays and lesbians equal legal rights was an impressive and depressing sight. The Catholic Church has expressed similar opposition but did not appear to field many followers that day.
And the Christians won - big time! The chief executive said in his policy address there would not even be a public consultation after credible reports claimed such laws would be considered by the government. If you are gay, the government's message is clear. Shut up and don't let anybody know, certainly not your boss or teacher. Who knows what religious congregation he might belong to?
The Christian protesters' fear that an anti-discrimination law would create "reverse discrimination" is absurd and exaggerated. But this is how our society operates today: Distort an issue, provoke public fear and anger, and then the government will surely back down.
And it was not just Hong Kong's Christians. The protest was designed to coincide with the massive rally of hundreds of thousands - a mix of Catholics, conservatives, Muslims and evangelicals - at the Eiffel Tower against French President Francois Hollande's plan to legalise gay marriage and adoption. Whatever you think about our local Christians, they were part of a global anti-gay response.
Let me be clear. I support equal rights for gays and lesbians. But I think it's also wrong for "liberals" to denounce those Christians as simply bigoted. For being Christian entails subscribing to certain core beliefs and values. And believing marriage is a union of opposite sexes and that gay sex is unnatural has to be understood as part of their belief system. Who are we to tell them what to believe?
I was once a Catholic but not any more because I no longer share their beliefs. Surely it would be absurd for me to insist on their following my new and non-Christian beliefs just so I could remain a Christian.
If you are gay, it is unnecessary for you to denounce Christians. But you do need to fight fire with fire, and force with greater force; you need to stage bigger rallies to demand equal rights by law.
This article first appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition on Jan 19, 2013 as MY TAKE Christians are wrong, but not bigoted
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gabyleung Jan 20th 2013
5:08pm
5:08pm
In an advanced world like this, who are we to judge how people should love one another. Do we just give into beliefs? Un-allowing same **** marriage would be violating human rights.
johndoe Jan 20th 2013
8:32pm
8:32pm
Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is nothing in Article 16 section 1 that supports homosexual marriage.
Article 16 section 1 states: "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family." There is no provision for same **** marriage nor a right to marry regardless of sexual preference.
Article 16 section 1 states: "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family." There is no provision for same **** marriage nor a right to marry regardless of sexual preference.
ianson Jan 20th 2013
8:44am
8:44am
Wrong again, Mr Lo. And, once again, you do not understand the words you use. A bigot is one who is unreasonably intolerant of others' views. No word can better describe the stance of this particular group of Christians. They are bigots in the best sense of the word.
The objection to their position is not an attempt to infringe their beliefs. No one is stepping into their lives to break up their marriages and force them into homosexuality. Yet they are interfering in others' lives in refusing them the right to conduct themselves as they choose.
Your usual lack of logic or good sense will leave you nonplussed by this plea, no doubt, but perhaps some of your readers will see how terribly wrong you have it.
The objection to their position is not an attempt to infringe their beliefs. No one is stepping into their lives to break up their marriages and force them into homosexuality. Yet they are interfering in others' lives in refusing them the right to conduct themselves as they choose.
Your usual lack of logic or good sense will leave you nonplussed by this plea, no doubt, but perhaps some of your readers will see how terribly wrong you have it.
choisuibun Jan 19th 2013
11:03pm
11:03pm
"Christians are wrong." You wont get yourself in trouble by saying this in hk because of the freedom of speech. However. If the anti-discrimination law is ever passed, you are very likely be prosecuted by saying " gay and **** are wrong" in news regardless of your grounds
Let be clear. Opposing the anti-discrimination law does not mean agreeing with discrimination. The logic is so simple. On the other hands, supporting the anti-discrimination law does not ensures equal right between gay and ****, and the other rest of the people because it gives the gay and **** the right to prosecute and the right to ask for government subsidy to prosecute anyone they think are offending them in some ways. How could that be equal right?
Education is a better way to deal with discrimination. Gay discrimination is just one possible form of discrimination. Discrimination happens much more frequent in real life when it comes to the appearance, ethical groups and obviously the religion of the people.
HK people have no obligation whatsoever to follow the west. There are obviously a lot of things to learn from the west but then there are also bad examples like universal pension scheme. Hk people are intelligent enough to choose the best thing to do ourselves.
Discrimination is bad. No question about it. Anti-discrimination law is a bad idea. I was not in the HQ. But having a paceful concert in the HQ to express concerns is right thing to do. I am very proud of them.
Let be clear. Opposing the anti-discrimination law does not mean agreeing with discrimination. The logic is so simple. On the other hands, supporting the anti-discrimination law does not ensures equal right between gay and ****, and the other rest of the people because it gives the gay and **** the right to prosecute and the right to ask for government subsidy to prosecute anyone they think are offending them in some ways. How could that be equal right?
Education is a better way to deal with discrimination. Gay discrimination is just one possible form of discrimination. Discrimination happens much more frequent in real life when it comes to the appearance, ethical groups and obviously the religion of the people.
HK people have no obligation whatsoever to follow the west. There are obviously a lot of things to learn from the west but then there are also bad examples like universal pension scheme. Hk people are intelligent enough to choose the best thing to do ourselves.
Discrimination is bad. No question about it. Anti-discrimination law is a bad idea. I was not in the HQ. But having a paceful concert in the HQ to express concerns is right thing to do. I am very proud of them.
PDB1688 Jan 19th 2013
12:20pm
12:20pm
Update from the home counties : My parent's United Reform Church ( = former Congregational + the Scottish Presbyterian Church - or whatever ) in a quiet English town is split down the middle as to whether to allow or not to allow civil marriages in the church building, which decision it seems they have to make according to some new law in the UK which allows a one-way irrevocable decision .
Civll = non- Protestant Christians/Catholic "heretics, junkies, wierdos and even g.a.y.s.!
How silly does all this get ? If God really is against g.a.y.s why did he allow some of us to be born as trans-s.e.x.uals ? ( OK l.a.d.y. - b.o.y.s / s.h.e.- m.a.l.e.s )
PS to the editor : your 'clean comments" filter even forbids the word G.A.Y. and replaces it with XXXX
OK : HOMOSEXUALS & LESBIANS
Civll = non- Protestant Christians/Catholic "heretics, junkies, wierdos and even g.a.y.s.!
How silly does all this get ? If God really is against g.a.y.s why did he allow some of us to be born as trans-s.e.x.uals ? ( OK l.a.d.y. - b.o.y.s / s.h.e.- m.a.l.e.s )
PS to the editor : your 'clean comments" filter even forbids the word G.A.Y. and replaces it with XXXX
OK : HOMOSEXUALS & LESBIANS
robertnsparker@... Jan 19th 2013
11:07am
11:07am
If anti-gay Christians are not bigoted, I have no idea what to call them. Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but when then insist on having the rest of society follow those beliefs they stray beyond religious freedom and into bigotry. I don't happen to believe in a superhuman being, let alone someone called Jesus being his son. It flows from that that i also don't think "god" created the world, and certainly not in seven days. Many Christians would disagree—and that is their right to do so. But when Christians start demanding that I follow their thinking in these and other matter they are just as wrong and as bigoted as i would be if I demanded that they give up their superstitions.
About 10% of any given society is gay. Numerous studies show that homosexuality is not learned behaviour If Christians want to force gay people to act unnaturally in order to join their club, fair enough. But when Christians start demanding that society as a whole shares their prejudices then Christians demonstrate unbridled bigotry.
There is no excuse for denying 10% of the population the rights and privileges accorded to the majority. In this day in age **** should not be forced to "demand equal rights by law". Rather, obstructionist,and yes, "bigoted" Christians should get out of the road and embrace the 21st century.
About 10% of any given society is gay. Numerous studies show that homosexuality is not learned behaviour If Christians want to force gay people to act unnaturally in order to join their club, fair enough. But when Christians start demanding that society as a whole shares their prejudices then Christians demonstrate unbridled bigotry.
There is no excuse for denying 10% of the population the rights and privileges accorded to the majority. In this day in age **** should not be forced to "demand equal rights by law". Rather, obstructionist,and yes, "bigoted" Christians should get out of the road and embrace the 21st century.
johndoe Jan 20th 2013
8:26pm
8:26pm
Your figures are way off. The 10% figure frequently cited comes from a Kinsey study that sampled 25% prostitutes and prison inmates. Kinsey in "The Kinsey Report" said 10% of American men were gay when in fact only two percent were. Dr Judith Reisman has shown that the Kinsey Report was based on falsified data.
How about you look up statistics on sexual infidelity and length of marriage in heterosexual marriages to prove their validity.....
How about you look up statistics on sexual infidelity and length of marriage in heterosexual marriages to prove their validity.....
HK-Lover Jan 19th 2013
10:52am
10:52am
In todays time there are 2 different forms of marriage: secular marriage and religious marriage. Secular rights and marriages apply to everybody equally and religious laws apply only to a limited group of people, the members of that belief . Since only secular marriages have any legal implications in HK it doesn't matter if a church will not allow a church marriage for same-s.e.x couples. Anyway, if any religion does not allow same-s.e.x marriages the gay couple wouldn't be members of that "club".
The government needs to evaluate the legal implications of a marriage e.g. if a gay couple cannot marry, will they be treated legally equal compared to opposite-s.e.x couples that are married in regard to e.g. taxes, inheritance law, public housing etc ?
Sorry but I had to write s.e.x with punctuation, otherwise it will automatically appear as xxxx (are we already as uptight as the US ? )
The government needs to evaluate the legal implications of a marriage e.g. if a gay couple cannot marry, will they be treated legally equal compared to opposite-s.e.x couples that are married in regard to e.g. taxes, inheritance law, public housing etc ?
Sorry but I had to write s.e.x with punctuation, otherwise it will automatically appear as xxxx (are we already as uptight as the US ? )
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