Huangpu is a district of pigeon fanciers and the skies over Shanghai have seen birds racing back to their coops for the best part of a century. Words and pictures by Jonathan Browning.
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My Take
Saturday, 19 January, 2013, 12:00am
Christians are wrong, but not bigoted
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Boy, I have never seen so many Christians in one place in my life, at least not in Hong Kong. But the gathering outside the government headquarters of mainly Protestant groups last Sunday united against granting gays and lesbians equal legal rights was an impressive and depressing sight. The Catholic Church has expressed similar opposition but did not appear to field many followers that day.
And the Christians won - big time! The chief executive said in his policy address there would not even be a public consultation after credible reports claimed such laws would be considered by the government. If you are gay, the government's message is clear. Shut up and don't let anybody know, certainly not your boss or teacher. Who knows what religious congregation he might belong to?
The Christian protesters' fear that an anti-discrimination law would create "reverse discrimination" is absurd and exaggerated. But this is how our society operates today: Distort an issue, provoke public fear and anger, and then the government will surely back down.
And it was not just Hong Kong's Christians. The protest was designed to coincide with the massive rally of hundreds of thousands - a mix of Catholics, conservatives, Muslims and evangelicals - at the Eiffel Tower against French President Francois Hollande's plan to legalise gay marriage and adoption. Whatever you think about our local Christians, they were part of a global anti-gay response.
Let me be clear. I support equal rights for gays and lesbians. But I think it's also wrong for "liberals" to denounce those Christians as simply bigoted. For being Christian entails subscribing to certain core beliefs and values. And believing marriage is a union of opposite sexes and that gay sex is unnatural has to be understood as part of their belief system. Who are we to tell them what to believe?
I was once a Catholic but not any more because I no longer share their beliefs. Surely it would be absurd for me to insist on their following my new and non-Christian beliefs just so I could remain a Christian.
If you are gay, it is unnecessary for you to denounce Christians. But you do need to fight fire with fire, and force with greater force; you need to stage bigger rallies to demand equal rights by law.
This article first appeared in the South China Morning Post print edition on Jan 19, 2013 as MY TAKE Christians are wrong, but not bigoted
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yellow_lynx_cat Jan 23rd 2013
5:04pm
5:04pm
I was there holding up a placard protesting to the Christians. It's certainly bigotry, and more the hypocrisy was just sickening. They invited a former singer/actress, wife of Ceci Chao, mother of Gigi Chao to give a teary "testimonial" - she could tolerate her husband to be a playboy and womanizer and sleeping with many women, but could not allow her own daughter to have a committed life long relationship with her true love - one woman. This double standard is just sickening.
babyhenry Jan 22nd 2013
6:17pm
6:17pm
I am sorry for I have sinned and choose to continue to sin because I find all kinds of Religion Full of BS stories cater to the weak minded whom is unable to stand on their own feets and think properly. After thousand years of lies & wars, religion like Islam and Christian can still hold their gound, I find them much more dangerous than than around 1 century old CCP and their god Chairman Mao. Whenever I see North Korea in TV and hear stories of RED China during Cultural Rev, I see can imagine what life will be like when collective fools are grouped together to praise and defend a greater fool or a fictional character.
forwhatitsworth Jan 22nd 2013
11:21am
11:21am
I'm sorry Alex, but religion should not be an excuse for intolerance and should not be used as a veil to be a bigot.
If I created a religion called "Chinese People Do Not Deserve Equal Rights", where we congregate every Sunday to discuss how everything about you is a sin, and we worship a mythical deity who hates everything about you, does this suddenly absolve me from being a bigot?
The problem with religion is that they believe everyone should be tolerant of their beliefs while at the same time being intolerant of other people's beliefs.
People should be given the right to believe what they want, and everyone should be given basic human rights regardless of sexual orientation or what they believe in. Simple as that.
If I created a religion called "Chinese People Do Not Deserve Equal Rights", where we congregate every Sunday to discuss how everything about you is a sin, and we worship a mythical deity who hates everything about you, does this suddenly absolve me from being a bigot?
The problem with religion is that they believe everyone should be tolerant of their beliefs while at the same time being intolerant of other people's beliefs.
People should be given the right to believe what they want, and everyone should be given basic human rights regardless of sexual orientation or what they believe in. Simple as that.
johnrai7 Jan 22nd 2013
3:38am
3:38am
Christians today have realized that the God is all about Love and Hope. The purpose of Christ was to reconcile the relationship with God that man had broken by Adam, the first man.He was meant to be crucified!
Christians respect and love the **** brothers or sisters, however its a concern that the limit is not crossed such as same **** marriage and more freedoms. Once this becomes the culture there can be many problems socially. Its just a wrong right.
Christians respect and love the **** brothers or sisters, however its a concern that the limit is not crossed such as same **** marriage and more freedoms. Once this becomes the culture there can be many problems socially. Its just a wrong right.
Snake Eyes Jan 21st 2013
4:28pm
4:28pm
Yes it is bigoted. There is nothing wrong with having your own religious belief. The bigotry comes when believing others who do not share your fairy tales must also live by it. And if you are a Christian and you don't like gayness, don't be gay.
China had homosexuals before it had Christians. It's an open question which one should be kicked out. Gayness isn't a choice. Christianity is.
China had homosexuals before it had Christians. It's an open question which one should be kicked out. Gayness isn't a choice. Christianity is.
raglan Jan 21st 2013
11:51am
11:51am
Oh the ignorance..... people need to start educating themselves in science and genetics to realise homosexuality is due to genetics and is perfectly normal. 500 years ago, Christians beileved that the world was flat and centre of the universe, I wondering whether how many of these Christians still believe the world is flat, and only several thousand years old as dictated by the Bible?
And people are complaining about brainwashing! I don't think anything is more powerful than religious dogma.
And people are complaining about brainwashing! I don't think anything is more powerful than religious dogma.
mercedes2233 Jan 21st 2013
8:46am
8:46am
Very sad day. If I were a Christian, I would renounce the association in shame. Of course they are wrong AND bigoted.
fink Jan 21st 2013
8:05am
8:05am
"Believing marriage is a union of opposite sexes and that gay **** is unnatural has to be understood as part of their belief system. Who are we to tell them what to believe?"
No, no, no. That's simply not true. Many Christians are homosexual and there's not one word of Jesus's teachings that even addresses this issue. This is not a question of beliefs. It's simply bigotry.
If marriage was so important to Jesus, why didn't he say anything about it? Why wasn't he married himself? Do we even know that Jesus was straight?
No, no, no. That's simply not true. Many Christians are homosexual and there's not one word of Jesus's teachings that even addresses this issue. This is not a question of beliefs. It's simply bigotry.
If marriage was so important to Jesus, why didn't he say anything about it? Why wasn't he married himself? Do we even know that Jesus was straight?
johndoe Jan 20th 2013
8:15pm
8:15pm
To all of those screaming "bigots", what do you tell to non-Christians who do not support "equal rights" (i.e. collectivist rights) legislation?
The protesters (no matter who they are) are fully justified to resent government force that would prevent them from speaking out if they disagree that all sexual preferences are equally good.
If those supporting "equal rights" are so tolerant, they should stop turning to the government to enforce their views by legal decree. Those "gay rights" advocates can instead promote their ideas in an open debate and try convince others. Apparently they have failed and are now kicking and screaming because they can't get the government to play ball.
The protesters (no matter who they are) are fully justified to resent government force that would prevent them from speaking out if they disagree that all sexual preferences are equally good.
If those supporting "equal rights" are so tolerant, they should stop turning to the government to enforce their views by legal decree. Those "gay rights" advocates can instead promote their ideas in an open debate and try convince others. Apparently they have failed and are now kicking and screaming because they can't get the government to play ball.
gabyleung Jan 20th 2013
5:08pm
5:08pm
In an advanced world like this, who are we to judge how people should love one another. Do we just give into beliefs? Un-allowing same **** marriage would be violating human rights.
johndoe Jan 20th 2013
8:32pm
8:32pm
Sorry to rain on your parade, but there is nothing in Article 16 section 1 that supports homosexual marriage.
Article 16 section 1 states: "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family." There is no provision for same **** marriage nor a right to marry regardless of sexual preference.
Article 16 section 1 states: "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family." There is no provision for same **** marriage nor a right to marry regardless of sexual preference.
ianson Jan 20th 2013
8:44am
8:44am
Wrong again, Mr Lo. And, once again, you do not understand the words you use. A bigot is one who is unreasonably intolerant of others' views. No word can better describe the stance of this particular group of Christians. They are bigots in the best sense of the word.
The objection to their position is not an attempt to infringe their beliefs. No one is stepping into their lives to break up their marriages and force them into homosexuality. Yet they are interfering in others' lives in refusing them the right to conduct themselves as they choose.
Your usual lack of logic or good sense will leave you nonplussed by this plea, no doubt, but perhaps some of your readers will see how terribly wrong you have it.
The objection to their position is not an attempt to infringe their beliefs. No one is stepping into their lives to break up their marriages and force them into homosexuality. Yet they are interfering in others' lives in refusing them the right to conduct themselves as they choose.
Your usual lack of logic or good sense will leave you nonplussed by this plea, no doubt, but perhaps some of your readers will see how terribly wrong you have it.
choisuibun Jan 19th 2013
11:03pm
11:03pm
"Christians are wrong." You wont get yourself in trouble by saying this in hk because of the freedom of speech. However. If the anti-discrimination law is ever passed, you are very likely be prosecuted by saying " gay and **** are wrong" in news regardless of your grounds
Let be clear. Opposing the anti-discrimination law does not mean agreeing with discrimination. The logic is so simple. On the other hands, supporting the anti-discrimination law does not ensures equal right between gay and ****, and the other rest of the people because it gives the gay and **** the right to prosecute and the right to ask for government subsidy to prosecute anyone they think are offending them in some ways. How could that be equal right?
Education is a better way to deal with discrimination. Gay discrimination is just one possible form of discrimination. Discrimination happens much more frequent in real life when it comes to the appearance, ethical groups and obviously the religion of the people.
HK people have no obligation whatsoever to follow the west. There are obviously a lot of things to learn from the west but then there are also bad examples like universal pension scheme. Hk people are intelligent enough to choose the best thing to do ourselves.
Discrimination is bad. No question about it. Anti-discrimination law is a bad idea. I was not in the HQ. But having a paceful concert in the HQ to express concerns is right thing to do. I am very proud of them.
Let be clear. Opposing the anti-discrimination law does not mean agreeing with discrimination. The logic is so simple. On the other hands, supporting the anti-discrimination law does not ensures equal right between gay and ****, and the other rest of the people because it gives the gay and **** the right to prosecute and the right to ask for government subsidy to prosecute anyone they think are offending them in some ways. How could that be equal right?
Education is a better way to deal with discrimination. Gay discrimination is just one possible form of discrimination. Discrimination happens much more frequent in real life when it comes to the appearance, ethical groups and obviously the religion of the people.
HK people have no obligation whatsoever to follow the west. There are obviously a lot of things to learn from the west but then there are also bad examples like universal pension scheme. Hk people are intelligent enough to choose the best thing to do ourselves.
Discrimination is bad. No question about it. Anti-discrimination law is a bad idea. I was not in the HQ. But having a paceful concert in the HQ to express concerns is right thing to do. I am very proud of them.
PDB1688 Jan 19th 2013
12:20pm
12:20pm
Update from the home counties : My parent's United Reform Church ( = former Congregational + the Scottish Presbyterian Church - or whatever ) in a quiet English town is split down the middle as to whether to allow or not to allow civil marriages in the church building, which decision it seems they have to make according to some new law in the UK which allows a one-way irrevocable decision .
Civll = non- Protestant Christians/Catholic "heretics, junkies, wierdos and even g.a.y.s.!
How silly does all this get ? If God really is against g.a.y.s why did he allow some of us to be born as trans-s.e.x.uals ? ( OK l.a.d.y. - b.o.y.s / s.h.e.- m.a.l.e.s )
PS to the editor : your 'clean comments" filter even forbids the word G.A.Y. and replaces it with XXXX
OK : HOMOSEXUALS & LESBIANS
Civll = non- Protestant Christians/Catholic "heretics, junkies, wierdos and even g.a.y.s.!
How silly does all this get ? If God really is against g.a.y.s why did he allow some of us to be born as trans-s.e.x.uals ? ( OK l.a.d.y. - b.o.y.s / s.h.e.- m.a.l.e.s )
PS to the editor : your 'clean comments" filter even forbids the word G.A.Y. and replaces it with XXXX
OK : HOMOSEXUALS & LESBIANS
robertnsparker@... Jan 19th 2013
11:07am
11:07am
If anti-gay Christians are not bigoted, I have no idea what to call them. Christians are free to believe whatever they want, but when then insist on having the rest of society follow those beliefs they stray beyond religious freedom and into bigotry. I don't happen to believe in a superhuman being, let alone someone called Jesus being his son. It flows from that that i also don't think "god" created the world, and certainly not in seven days. Many Christians would disagree—and that is their right to do so. But when Christians start demanding that I follow their thinking in these and other matter they are just as wrong and as bigoted as i would be if I demanded that they give up their superstitions.
About 10% of any given society is gay. Numerous studies show that homosexuality is not learned behaviour If Christians want to force gay people to act unnaturally in order to join their club, fair enough. But when Christians start demanding that society as a whole shares their prejudices then Christians demonstrate unbridled bigotry.
There is no excuse for denying 10% of the population the rights and privileges accorded to the majority. In this day in age **** should not be forced to "demand equal rights by law". Rather, obstructionist,and yes, "bigoted" Christians should get out of the road and embrace the 21st century.
About 10% of any given society is gay. Numerous studies show that homosexuality is not learned behaviour If Christians want to force gay people to act unnaturally in order to join their club, fair enough. But when Christians start demanding that society as a whole shares their prejudices then Christians demonstrate unbridled bigotry.
There is no excuse for denying 10% of the population the rights and privileges accorded to the majority. In this day in age **** should not be forced to "demand equal rights by law". Rather, obstructionist,and yes, "bigoted" Christians should get out of the road and embrace the 21st century.
johndoe Jan 20th 2013
8:26pm
8:26pm
Your figures are way off. The 10% figure frequently cited comes from a Kinsey study that sampled 25% prostitutes and prison inmates. Kinsey in "The Kinsey Report" said 10% of American men were gay when in fact only two percent were. Dr Judith Reisman has shown that the Kinsey Report was based on falsified data.
How about you look up statistics on sexual infidelity and length of marriage in heterosexual marriages to prove their validity.....
How about you look up statistics on sexual infidelity and length of marriage in heterosexual marriages to prove their validity.....
HK-Lover Jan 19th 2013
10:52am
10:52am
In todays time there are 2 different forms of marriage: secular marriage and religious marriage. Secular rights and marriages apply to everybody equally and religious laws apply only to a limited group of people, the members of that belief . Since only secular marriages have any legal implications in HK it doesn't matter if a church will not allow a church marriage for same-s.e.x couples. Anyway, if any religion does not allow same-s.e.x marriages the gay couple wouldn't be members of that "club".
The government needs to evaluate the legal implications of a marriage e.g. if a gay couple cannot marry, will they be treated legally equal compared to opposite-s.e.x couples that are married in regard to e.g. taxes, inheritance law, public housing etc ?
Sorry but I had to write s.e.x with punctuation, otherwise it will automatically appear as xxxx (are we already as uptight as the US ? )
The government needs to evaluate the legal implications of a marriage e.g. if a gay couple cannot marry, will they be treated legally equal compared to opposite-s.e.x couples that are married in regard to e.g. taxes, inheritance law, public housing etc ?
Sorry but I had to write s.e.x with punctuation, otherwise it will automatically appear as xxxx (are we already as uptight as the US ? )
pslhk Jan 19th 2013
9:08am
9:08am
There are always nuts, whether this or that kind
I won’t mind as long as they keep to themselves
Not to force society to make ludicrous differentiation
between affidavit (christians) and affirmation (others)
Not to corrupt meaningful tradition : marriage; family with children
Form and stick to their own institution : co-habitation; libo-frater-soronity
Try persuasion and not demonstration
whether to make co-hab respectable and legal
or to defend the right to laugh at what is laughable.
Judges have no right to prevent or punish those
laughing at their ludicrous headgears.
Yes, no thought control, just like “scholarism” preaches
So I laugh at adults misled by immature kids
I won’t mind as long as they keep to themselves
Not to force society to make ludicrous differentiation
between affidavit (christians) and affirmation (others)
Not to corrupt meaningful tradition : marriage; family with children
Form and stick to their own institution : co-habitation; libo-frater-soronity
Try persuasion and not demonstration
whether to make co-hab respectable and legal
or to defend the right to laugh at what is laughable.
Judges have no right to prevent or punish those
laughing at their ludicrous headgears.
Yes, no thought control, just like “scholarism” preaches
So I laugh at adults misled by immature kids
rpasea Jan 19th 2013
7:21am
7:21am
"Who are we to tell them what to believe?"
True but religious beliefs have absolutely no place in a secular government.
True but religious beliefs have absolutely no place in a secular government.
whymak Jan 19th 2013
7:22am
7:22am
There they go again, taking to the streets to strong arm the SAR government into submission.
Maybe those teachers who demonstrated against the national education will now find their strongest cause yet against brainwashing, the teaching of biblical myths in schools.
Let's start with incest. God created only Adam and Eve. Where did Adam and Eve get their grand kids from? How did Noah continue his family line after the Flood? Which is worse, homosexuality or incest?
Science teachers should be especially sensitive. What if their students challenge them that our universe is only 6000 years but not 13.7 billion years old?
If we accept the teachings of the Bible as truths, we must exclude everything about mutation of bacteria and viruses and we won't be allowed to investigate the causes of cancer and the human immune system, which as you might have guessed, depends on the mutation of all life forms and the DNA molecule.
Maybe those teachers who demonstrated against the national education will now find their strongest cause yet against brainwashing, the teaching of biblical myths in schools.
Let's start with incest. God created only Adam and Eve. Where did Adam and Eve get their grand kids from? How did Noah continue his family line after the Flood? Which is worse, homosexuality or incest?
Science teachers should be especially sensitive. What if their students challenge them that our universe is only 6000 years but not 13.7 billion years old?
If we accept the teachings of the Bible as truths, we must exclude everything about mutation of bacteria and viruses and we won't be allowed to investigate the causes of cancer and the human immune system, which as you might have guessed, depends on the mutation of all life forms and the DNA molecule.
gunzy Jan 21st 2013
2:17pm
2:17pm
"If we accept the teachings of the Bible as truths, we must exclude everything about mutation of bacteria and viruses and we won't be allowed to investigate the causes of cancer and the human immune system, which as you might have guessed, depends on the mutation of all life forms and the DNA molecule."
Really? Where in the bible did it say this?
The scientific method requires repeatable proof of a statement. Statements like what you are making are about as bigoted towards a group of people as you state this group of people are towards ****.
If all you are intending to do is to inflame and insult, then how bitter your life must be.
Really? Where in the bible did it say this?
The scientific method requires repeatable proof of a statement. Statements like what you are making are about as bigoted towards a group of people as you state this group of people are towards ****.
If all you are intending to do is to inflame and insult, then how bitter your life must be.
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