'Rather than Hamas being a problem, we should strive to make them part of the solution.' These words come from a man whom no one could accuse of being soft on terrorism. Efraim Halevy ran the Israeli external security service, better known as the Mossad, from 1998 to 2003. Before that, he was the secret envoy of five Israeli prime ministers.
Now Mr Halevy is calling for new thinking on Hamas, al-Qaeda, and the future of the 'war on terrorism'.
When we met, the former head of the Mossad was sipping a herbal tea in an elegant London hotel. He looked more like an unassuming civil servant than a man who mastered one of the world's most feared, and admired, secret services. No doubt an eye-catching appearance is a disadvantage in the secret agent's trade.
Although Mr Halevy was affable and polite, he rarely made eye contact, staring off into the middle distance throughout our hour-long discussion.
'Unlike the government, I don't believe that Hamas needs to declare that it recognises Israel,' he said. 'It needs to make major changes to its policies, which have not yet come about. But Hamas should be judged by its actions rather than its words.'
What specific actions does he think Hamas needs to take?